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Season 2: Ep. 2: Compassionate Music Teaching with Karin Hendricks Part 1/3


This episode is the first of a three-part series exploring Dr. Karin Hendricks’ book on Compassionate Music Teaching. In this series, we will follow the profiles within the book to encounter lived practices of relationship, identity, community, voice, empathy, and dignity in music education. In this first episode, we explore Hendricks’ research on Suzuki, Steve Massey’s legacy of community, music, and leadership, Brian Michaud’s joy and curiosity, and the patient question-driven instruction of Dorothy Delay. This episode also contains a special treat with a tribute by Wynton Marsalis in honor of Steve Massey.

Karin Hendricks

Karin Hendricks is Associate Professor of Music and Chair of Music Education at Boston University. Her research interests include social psychology and social justice in music learning contexts, with a particular focus on student motivation and musical engagement.  Before moving to the collegiate level, Karin enjoyed a successful public school orchestra career, where she was a recipient of the United States Presidential Scholar Teacher Recognition Award among other honors.

She has published in numerous research journals and is  co-author of  Performance Anxiety Strategies published by Rowman & Littlefield. She is lead editor of Queering Freedom: Music, Identity, and Spirituality/(Peter Lang) and co-editor of Narratives and Reflections in Music Education: Listening to Voices Seldom Heard (Springer) and two forthcoming volumes on Music, Spirituality, and Wellbeing (Peter Lang).  

This podcast starts a three-part series on Karin Hendrick’s 2018 book, Compassionate Music Teaching. Our first episode explores the lives and influences of Suzuki, Steve Massey, Dorothy Delay, and Brian Michaud. We look at the patience, embodiment, community, flow, and imagination of compassionate music teaching. 

Compassionate Music Teaching Book

Discussion Questions

1. Suzuki refers to tone as the quality of musician’s soul. Wynton Marsalis referred to soul as related to generosity of spirit - “Soul means when you walk into a room, people feel better when you leave than they felt before you came in.” What seems to be the relation between energy, vibration, and presence in these notions of soul?

2. What qualities of our practice create systems of reward and motivation where music and relationship become the authentic rewards?

3. Hendricks states that she is exploring the notion that patience equals curiosity. When you have experienced moments where a sense of slowness seems to lead to a sense of curiosity?

4. Michaud seems to model that curiosity and play might require a sense of letting go and vulnerability. If curiosity, play, and vulnerability are intertwined, how might we open spaces for the three to live simultaneously? 

5. One of the arts of Dorothy Delay’s instruction is in allowing a series of questions to guide her teaching. How might question-fluent instruction engage student voice and curiosity in musical learning?

6. Fear and comparison seem to close down pathways to patience, play, curiosity, compassion, and space for listening. What roles do fear and comparison play in our teaching and musical practice? 




Boyce-Tillman, J. (2009). The transformative qualities of a liminal space created by musicking. Philosophy of Music Education Review, /17/(2), 184-202. doi: 10.2979/PME.2009.17.2.184

Hendricks, K. S. (2011). The philosophy of Shinichi Suzuki: “Music education a love education." Philosophy of Music Education Review, 19(2), 136-154. doi: 10.2979/philmusieducrevi.19.2.136

Hendricks, K. S. (2018). Compassionate music teaching: A framework for motivation and engagement in the 21st century. Rowman & Littlefield Press.

Wynton Marsalis' Tribute of Steve Massey

Dorothy Delay Youtube Series

Brian Michaud




students, music, suzuki, book, teacher, massey, moments, compassionate, wynton marsalis, karin, peacebuilding, teaching, hendricks, trust, tone, connection, brian, dorothy, people, embodiment


Wynton Marsalis, Karin Hendricks, Brian Michaud, Kevin Shorner-Johnson, Steve Massey


Karin Hendricks  00:00

And we can take those moments of crisis and conflict and work through them to hope for and to create magical moments.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  00:11

You are listening to the music and peacebuilding podcast, a professional development network at music exploring intersections of peace building, sacredness, community, creativity and imagination through research and story. Karin Hendricks is Associate Professor of Music and chair of music education at Boston University. Her research interests include social psychology and social justice and music learning context, with a particular focus on student motivation and musical engagement. Before moving to the collegiate level, Karin enjoyed a successful public school orchestra career, where she was a recipient of the United States Presidential Scholar teacher Recognition Award, among other honors, she is published in numerous research journals and is co author of performance anxiety strategies, published by rowman and Littlefield. She is lead editor of querying freedom, music, identity and spirituality, and co editor of narratives and reflections and music education, listening to voices seldom heard, and to forthcoming volumes on music, spirituality and well being. This podcast starts a three part series on Karin Hendricks 2018 book, compassionate music teaching. Our first episode explores the lives and influences of Suzuki, Steve Massey, Dorothy Delay, and Brian Michaud, we look at the patient's embodiment, community flow and imagination, of compassionate music teaching. We begin our conversation, speaking of gifts of slowness, and the unprecedented opportunity of this pandemic, as a reset.


Karin Hendricks  02:08

Yeah, and and do we even have the luxury of a reset, because in every moment, we are working we're being asked to produce, we're in a very strongly productive society. And so this idea of reset is is so delicious, but I don't know how often we, we are given that privilege, or opportunity. But it is so important. And if I might jump right to COVID-19 what what a wonderful opportunity for reset with all of the struggles and and traumas associated with the pandemic. I think many of us have hoped that it might become a reset for all of us. And we have yet to see if that's really the case, or if we're just rushing to a vaccine. So we can continue life as we've known it. But I think there are many people who are taking this as an opportunity to go deep, and reflect on on how to do things differently. And so yes, I would hope there would be an opportunity for a reset for us, but at the same time, life, that hurricane of activity is still flurrying around us. And sometimes it is important maybe to turn off the computer, maybe to just take a moment. I'll Come back to a story of me as a school teacher in a minute. But just take a moment whenever we can to, to take even a small tiny reset in every day. I remember as a young school teacher, having students around me in every every possible moment. And before classes before school after school. As is the case with most music teachers, we we tend to have a following of students who want to just come and hang out and spend time with us and with one another in music classrooms. But I was teaching on stage I didn't even have a music room in my first job and there was nowhere I had no office I had nowhere to go and take a moment to reflect and reconsider and have a deep breath. So I found that I had the key to the the light booth in the in the auditorium. So at times I would I would sneak up and go just take a deep breath even for 10 minutes, and I'd hear people down. - Where's Miss hen? Where did miss hen go and I'd just be up there. Okay, just a minute longer. to breathe, and then to be able to go back down and, and be much more present with the students. I talk about that as well in the compassionate music teaching book about teaching at the university level and running from one thing to the next and saying to the students, I just, I'm sorry, I'm frustrated. I'm flustered. It's not about you. It has nothing to do with you. I just need a moment to meditate. And after I said that three times, one of the students said, Well, Hendricks , why don't we meditate? And we took a moment, right there, put the class content aside just long enough to practice some Alexander Technique. Just a little bit of breath work, maybe 10 minutes. And then I think we got much more done because we had taken the time to reflect and and reset, as you're saying,


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  05:54

Yeah, I remember when I was interviewing a scholar, Mr. Rogers, for the very first podcast, I was reflecting with that scholar, just how much when I learned as a first year teacher to slow down, I realized that my speed was in many ways, kind of getting in the way of relationship and being able to, to actually enter the music.


Karin Hendricks  06:17

That reminds me of one of my conducting teachers at the University of Illinois, who helped me realize when being a string teacher,  there's such a propensity for string students to rush. And the more students would rush, the harder I would work to get them to slow down, my body gestures would get bigger and more aggressive, and all in the aim of having them rush less. But he he pointed out to me, and it was life changing for me, not only with conducting, but everything, the more I am aggressive, the bigger I become, the bigger they are going to be not only louder, but faster. And so it was actually doing the opposite of what I wanted. And so that's that's a life lesson as well as a conducting lesson. That if we want, if we want more relaxation we need to relax. If we want more focus, we need to take the time to focus and it's never wasted time. We often save time by so doing.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  07:30

In 2011 Karin Hendrix published an article on the great violin pedagogue Suzuki deeply rooted within Zen Buddhism, Suzuki models a philosophy of musicking, in which wisdom is embodied through action, Hendricks writes, Suzuki's approach was to clear his mind, carefully reflect about himself, and then turn reflection into action in order to improve from a Suzuki viewpoint, knowing within How about and why is embodied through the art of doing just as a practical philosopher would never leave musicking out of musical experience, Suzuki would never have left action out of knowing.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  08:21

Let's talk about tone. I was so fascinated in your article because I think that because I'm still on a journey of getting to know Suzuki that I I didn't understand the relationship between tone and a musician's soul. So you wrote that Suzuki taught that it was through the spiritual nature of tone, that one could sense the quality of a musician's soul." Can you speak to us about why tone matters as a spiritual way of finding the center of our being?


Karin Hendricks  08:49

That is a really complex question. But that's great. And I would, I would focus on vibration first. I mean, if we're taking this in the way that I believe Suzuki interpreted this, it is truly considering that there is a vibration between people. And I expand a little bit more on that in compassionate music teaching with the idea of of, you know, how, how we there's their science, that tells us that we really can feel and experience what other people are feeling and experiencing. So it's not just this woowoo out there idea. But But there is a tangible vibrational connection between humans so I think Suzuki was onto something there with the idea that music or sound waves can be some sort of mechanism for that connection or that communication from person to person. So, to him, it was absolutely critical that you were doing two things simultaneously. You were teaching students how to hear and recognize and produce a solid, resonant tone. And without, without any sort of anything getting in the way of that tone, you know, not too much force, not too much pressure. But but having this just this clear focused tone. So that was the first part. But the second part was his belief that that tone was connected to a person's character. So and the more I think about this, from a psychological standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to me. Some of my research in performance anxiety plays a role here as well, if I am holding back on my authentic self, if there's something I don't want to share. Or if there's, you know, if there's something I'm hiding, or if I'm just downright afraid, then I'm going to limit my free expression. I may not want to, but that may be something that is some sort of inner turmoil inside of me. So the more authentic, the more honest, the more vulnerable I allow myself to be, the more that authentic tone quality can come through, he had more esoteric terms for that, just basically saying, if you have a good character, you have a good tone. But I really think there is something to that, from a scientific and psychological standpoint that we really can connect with other people through the expressions that come through our instrument.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  11:48

Suzuki writes a lot about love, and especially the word heart. And he, he writes that the purpose of music education maybe is to make the world more peaceful and loving. So can you talk about where you see Suzuki's intentions, as he uses these words of heart and love in his language?


Karin Hendricks  12:08

Yeah, I think I'm having , he was living during World War Two. And I think we have to have that context in mind. That is someone who had spent time in Germany and Japan, you know, I and unexperienced World War Two, I think he was very concerned about, you know, world peace, are we going to get to a point where we can get along, you know, is the is this really the war that ends all wars. And so I think he had that in mind. And, and in that perspective, as much as I love music, and as much as I, you know, Suzuki loved music to him, Music was a means to another end, you know, as he'd say, character first technique Second, very good heart is number one. So teaching violin was just a method for him to get to this fostering, of, of, of a heart that is open to loving other people, no matter who they are, no matter where they live, being able to make those connections that we still so desperately need in this world. Yeah.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  13:32

So let's turn to your book on compassionate music teaching. I find the resonance of your work on Suzuki coming into play and your book because in many ways, your book is looking at the embodiment of compassionate practices that are happening in these individuals that you profile which kind of builds upon your scholarship on embodiment with Suzuki as well. I was wondering maybe before we really dig into the meat of the book, if you might introduce us to to the lived practitioner examples of Dorothy Delay, Steve Massey, Bryan Michaud, Marcus Santos, and Renae Timbie


Karin Hendricks  14:11

Sure. Before I do, I want to note how you have you've struck right on something, Kevin, that I haven't really shared with a lot of people but my work in Suzuki led directly to the book compassionate music teaching and and earlier drafts of the book, were actually all about Suzuki. And then I, you know, I realized that it, it could be much stronger if it had more, more of a variety of settings. And that has proved to be the case, I think, but you know, so much of the book was inspired by Suzuki. So and that philosophy. so Dorothy Delay is the only one I did not interview. She passed away before I worked on this book. But I was very fortunate to be able to interview someone who had done a lot of research on her as well. As you know, there are books about her and studies about her. So I did a lot of historical study of Dorothy Delay for the book. She started out as a graduate assistant with Eben galamian. And then they ended up teaching together at Julliard One of the interesting things about Dorothy Delay is when she was starting her own violin study, her parents were concerned that, that she couldn't make a career in music, which is so funny because she most certainly did and beyond. But they encouraged her to also study psychology at Michigan State. And so you can see so much of her teaching approach. In comparison to psychology, she was notorious, or famous, depending on how you want to say it of for, for constant questioning. She'd spend so much time asking students questions, rather than simply telling them what to do. Even down to the point of asking them their interpretations of F sharp, you know, what's your concept of F sharp or whatever it might be asking students to really, really go deep and and inward, which is a great connection to what we've just set about Suzuki, to answer their own questions. And I write in the book about how Nadia Salerno Sonnenberg was initially quite frustrated by this approach, you know, why am I coming here? Sometimes I get so mad, I'd yell, I don't know, why are you getting paid? What is this? I'm teaching myself. But then she realized in hindsight, you know, she was teaching me to teach myself, and that's why she's a great teacher. And, you know, I don't know about you, Kevin. But I have found so often with students that, you know, that's when I know that I've arrived as a teacher is when I'm not really needed as much anymore, that hopefully that voice, my voice will stay with them. And, and, and some of the things that I've said will always be in their hearts. But at the same time, we get to a point where they're able to work quite independently. One of my favorite cello teachers, Peter Wright, my dear mentor, would often say that the the most important goal of a teacher is to become dispensable. And I don't know that I like the word dispensable. But at the same time, that is our goal is is to help students become independent and to think for themselves.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  18:17

Hendricks quotes a story from Angela Ahn about Dorothy Delay. She taught me not only to play the violin to my best ability, but also to be assertive, kind, thoughtful and caring. There isn't a more compassionate teacher than Ms. Delay. She had a knack for finding every student's individual strengths. She encouraged her studio to be supportive, compassionate and empathetic towards each other. She taught us so much more than just violin playing. She taught us how to be professionals.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  18:53

For more information, I invite you to check out a delightful YouTube series with Dimitri Berlinsky on Dorothy Delay in profiles of Brian Michaud and Dorothy Delay, Hendricks relays compassionate pedagogy, in which questions form a roadmap of dialogue with students, a pedagogy of patience and curiosity.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  19:19

I love that Suzuki writes of patience ass controlled frustration. That's such a great quote. But I was curious that, you know, in many ways, patience is the willingness to accept that learners are all moving on different timescales, you know, depending on how fast or how slow we all learn different things. And and I wonder about, you know, in a world of benchmarks and efficiency and uniform timescales, like the the notion of patience, almost seems countercultural. Now, can you talk about patience as a practice of compassion?


Karin Hendricks  19:54

Yeah, for me, I could say patience equals curiosity, and we I mentioned that already a bit with with Brian. And that curiosity. But for me, it's it's about asking questions. And yeah, I completely understand the life of a music teacher, and how there is a performance coming up. And there is a principal asking for this and that and, you know, there are standards that we're asked to meet, and so much of this if I had, If I had my way, so much of that would go away. And we would be able to engage with students in a much less time structured way. I so many of our motivations are based on on production today, you know, getting this reinforcements, we have some really, really outdated motivational systems, many of them based in fear that never served us well. And we really need to trust that students will be motivated, if they're working from a place of love rather than fear. And the moment we stop trying to capitalize what they're learning how they're learning, but allow a little more flexibility in in that, then motivation is no longer a topic I get myself out of a job, you know, as this as one who studies motivation. I'd love that if if it became a non issue because everyone was doing what they naturally felt to do. And there are many, you know, like Montessori programs, etc, that that do a really good job with that. But I think some of our public education structures have been so politicized that they've they become a carrot and stick approach rather than an approach of of love and learning.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  21:57

Hendricks writes of Steve Massey as a compassionate music educator, because he's centers a deep love of music, community centered practice, and invests in the leadership capacities of his students.


Karin Hendricks  22:10

Steve Massey taught right up the street for me here in Foxborough High School, and had for many, many years. I'm I'm thinking 35 years, I'll have to look that up, but for many, many years, had an award winning program, band program and jazz program. And he has interacted and collaborated with some of the world's greatest musicians, including Wynton Marsalis, and who, who has given quite a tribute to Steve as well. But the remarkable thing about Steve's approach was his leadership classes that he would have on Friday mornings early before school started, his student leaders would come and he would inspire them with ideas about transformative leadership. And to the point that when he would have rehearsals during the day, the students would rehearse in a circle, which you know, choirs do a lot. But concert bands don't do that nearly as much, he would be outside of the circle. And the students would be working together helping one another. And so, so he wasn't the only one speaking, helping. But everybody had this idea that we're all here together to help each other and the focus is on music. So competition, took a backseat for him. And instead, the focus was on cooperation, which also connects to Suzuki, right, that idea of cooperation versus competition. And I think that's one reason that his programs are not only so successful, because they have the, the you know, they're they're using time very effectively, because everyone's involved in helping everyone else improve. But they also have been able to do remarkable things expressively because as we also said, there's nothing holding them back from expressing who they are. There. There's less of a fear factor there but they're able to work together and produce together


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  24:36

courtesy of the Foxborough public access channel. The following is an audio clip of a jazz band performance where Steve Massey was surprised and honored by jazz legend Wynton Marsalis. The clip begins with Massey introducing the next jazz tune from the concert stage. While Mr Marsalis plots to interrupt these announcements with a surprise wail of a trumpet. The community embraces and honors an overwhelmed Mr. Massey .


Steve Massey  25:07

So, this this is what hopefully will sound like in New York. This is New York City. Yes. Yes, I did. Make sure.


Steve Massey  25:57

Ladies gentlemen


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  27:03

Wynton Marsalis expresses his love and respect for Mr. Massey


Wynton Marsalis  27:09

of love and respect that I have for Mr. Massey, what he represents to our culture who he is as a man. Three attributes I want to ascribe to him and say he possesses it with such depth and clarity and has exhibited for such a long time with such intensity that he is most worthy of all of us being here. Today, I told him, if I had to walk here, I would have walked here, I would have felt better about being if I had to walk or even crawl. That's the type of respect I actually have for this man. The first attribute is integrity. Integrity is a word that we hear all the time, but we see it exhibited, very seldom, because integrity costs. He possesses tremendous integrity, belief in meaning and the value of meaning. I always say when he walks into a room, all of our music is brought into the room with him because of the level of his integrity and the depth of it does not matter if he wins or loses something, what he believes in, he represents that in his very being and in his core, and in his soul, and he is most for real. The second is love. Another word that's  thrown about a lt. Right with d lovisis sacrifice. He loves his kids. That's why they play the way that they play. He loves the music. He's willing to sacrifice for it. He knows about it. Love manifests itself in knowledge. And he has been dedicated for such a long time I don't I'm not even going to repeat the number of years because it makes me blush. And the last is soul, and generosity of spirit. Those two go together. Soul means when you walk into a room, people feel better when you leave than they felt before you came in. This is what he has. And it is such an honor and a privilege for me to come here today. And to recognize him in front of the community in front of the kids who are here now. And I want you all to know the depth of love I have for this man. And how that love is very little in relation to the love that our music and the musicians and the band directors and all the people that know who he is, has for him exhibits when they see him and the way that they speak when he is not there. So I represent all of them. When I say more than a job well done, the definition of the job. Thank you for you've contributed and done. We love you very deeply. And you're great. Congratulations.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  30:11

I think your models of Steve Massey, he's a great model, because he seems to raise performances to those high standards and yet still balance that against a very intentional sense of wanting to create a sense of belonging and hospitality in this classroom if I read that, right,


Karin Hendricks  30:29

yes, look, absolutely, absolutely. You know, he tells the story of, of getting a go into a competition and getting a huge trophy. And the students turned to him and said, Mr. Massey, we don't have room for this. And what are we? Where are we going to put it? Can we just leave it? He said, I knew I had arrived as a teacher, because they were so focused on the music. And, you know, at his retirement, his last pops concert before his retirement, I was able to see how focused everyone was on that aspect of Steve Massey's program. It's all about the music. And the big accomplishments are having someone like Wynton Marsalis walk in the door and play with the students, or having them commission a piece. for him. I mean, that was the gift they gave him, it wasn't a plaque. It wasn't, it wasn't a big framed picture of him, you know, you often see that the big framed picture of the maestro that, you know, they can put in their living room or something. That's not what they gave him. They gave him a commissioned piece. And they noticed, they knew him so well to know that, that music, and the creation of music was what really mattered to him. Far more than any sort of award or accolade he might have received,


Brian Michaud  31:58

[Brian Michaud playing music],


Karin Hendricks  32:09

then Brian Michaud, is an elementary teacher in dighton, Massachusetts, and just is the embodiment of play. He prides himself quite a bit in being like, Tom Hanks in the movie big, he's just a big kid who gets to play with the students, but at the same time, he's so artful in the ability to structure and scaffold. What to consider, students needs, desires, in every moment, one of the most remarkable things that I gained in my conversations with Brian has to do with classroom management. A term that I think, you know, classroom discipline is, is most certainly an outdated term. But even classroom management, I think, in a way, is is kind of outdated. If we think about, you know, this one person managing other students, and he doesn't see it that way he sees that it's, it's this facilitation of activities, I guess, is a way to say that. But when students, when his elementary students kind of get out of control, as we might say, he turns to curiosity, rather than a need to control or manage or change immediately, he goes into this mode of I wonder, I wonder what's happening. And he doesn't take it personally, which I think is where a lot of music, well meaning music teachers might go wrong is if something happens in the class, and there's some sort of disruption, we immediately think that the students are against us in some way. And he doesn't see it that way at all. He says, oh, my goodness, what's happening and what do they need? What do I need? And, and it's less about us versus them. And it's all more about curiosity, and going with the flow of energy. It's quite inspiring.


Brian Michaud  34:16

[Brian Michaud playing music] 


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  34:26

So if we move to the last construct of authenticity, I love the the quote that you capture from Michaud  that there's an electricity or magic in the air when a teacher truly connects with a group of students. You see them in front of their students, and they're smiling and their students are smiling and they're laughing. And there's something special about that connection, because it's almost like they're one. I think so many of us music teachers, we've experienced that moment at some time in our lives. And for many of us, like that may have been one of those moments when we decided to get into music. Sure. But Yet it also sometimes it feels so far away to reach for that all the time, because it's hard to get to that place of magic. And I was just just curious about what you'd experienced with these great people about how they get to this space of authentic connection.


Karin Hendricks  35:14

Yeah, well, and I appreciate that you said that because just like performing in general, we talk about this, when we do performance anxiety workshops, so many of us have gotten into music in general, because of some sort of magical moment where, you know, we were in flow, and it just was, you know, just this such a powerful experience. And boy, wouldn't it be great if we could be there all the time. But, you know, the research on flow tells us, that's impossible. Because as soon as we get into that zone, enough, it becomes, it's no longer challenging for us. And so we need more challenge to get to that moment the next time. And so that's one aspect. The other aspect is, is that in life, these are special moments, and they really are special, and they're not going to happen all the time. And so, so when we think of musical performance, and also the connection that we're talking about right now, in terms of connecting with students, or might we say in any relationship we have with any human, there are really magical moments. And then there are moments that are quite boring and dull, and other moments where there's conflict. But that's all part of the experience. And it's those moments of conflict, or even those moments of boredom, that make the magical moments, so incredible. So I think the first thing I would offer to music teachers, myself included, is to have patience, and understand that it's all part of the process. It's all part of the journey. And we shouldn't expect of ourselves that we're always going to have perfectly wonderful, practically perfect in every way moments with our students. But there will be moments of conflict, moments of crisis, moments of boredom. And we can take those moments of crisis and conflict and work through them to hope for and to create magical moments later on.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  37:27

Hmm, I think that's that's one of the great powers of music from from my perspective from peacebuilding is that, you know, in peacebuilding, we recognize that peace is not the absence of conflict, but it's actually in many ways entering into conflict in a very genuine way. And I think musicians understand that, more than so many other areas about the importance of dissonance and the importance of conflict.


Karin Hendricks  37:51

Yeah, one thing I have been inspired to think about in future books, is the idea of nonviolent communication. I think that's something that that I could have expanded on a lot more in this book, but the idea that we don't well, and I guess, Renae does talk about that a little bit. Oh, and so does Marcus the idea that, you know, he tries to watch various news outlets and to make sure he's understanding a variety of perspectives, because it's only through working through moments of discord. As I say in the book. It's only through working through moments of discord, that we really begin to understand people in authentic ways.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  38:42

I share Hendricks admiration for June Boyce Tillman, and her thoughtful scholarship on intersections between religion, spirituality and music education. In speaking of liminal space and musicking Boyce Tillman defines a limen  as a moment or space in which we move from ordinary knowing, to a transformative encounter that tolerates and embraces paradox. It is a space time where we are free to play, experience all in wonder and enter into, quote, a feeling of unity with other beings, people and the cosmos.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  39:24

So what happened, I asked you that you wish I would have asked you about your book.


Karin Hendricks  39:28

I don't know. I'm really impressed with how deeply you've read it. I have to say,


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  39:34

I really enjoyed it.


Karin Hendricks  39:36

I don't know if this is important to say. But I if you asked me what my next directions were,


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  39:43



Karin Hendricks  39:44

My next directions with research will be looking more deeply into the literature on trust. I think there's really something I think there could be a whole book on trust and building and fostering and modeling trust in music learning spaces. I think that relates a lot to anxiety and and our inhibitions are we, do we feel fully safe? Do we feel fully brave, I'm challenging the word safe, as as many anti racist scholars are doing right now actually, in thinking instead about terms like brave, as opposed to safe. But what can we do to foster spaces of trust? So I'm thinking of doing some research that looks into the ways that teachers versus students interpret trust to begin with. So I talk in the book about the different facets of trust, and what might make a difference to me kind of like we think about the love languages and the five love languages and, and how certain people have different love languages. And I'm wondering, and I don't know this, but this is where the research will go next. Do some of us have more salience with certain facets of trust than others? And do we make assumptions as teachers, that what we're doing to foster trust? Is what students really need to feel a sense of trust?


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  41:27

I find so much interaction between the notion of trust and what we're learning about trauma now as you use that word of safety, yeah. But I think it's also fascinating because in the book, you point out how you link the language of Freire  to trust and how it can also be a language of a pathway into sincere dialogue that really helps us to work toward justice issues as well. And I think it's, yeah, it is a beautiful connection. Yeah.


Kevin Shorner-Johnson  41:58

Our next two podcasts in this three part series on compassionate music teaching, will explore social change, circle practice, and empathetic dialogue with Marcus Santos and notions of dignity and voice and refugee and multicultural choir settings with Rene tembi Special thanks to Foxborough cable access for permission to use the audio clip of Mr. Massey, thanks to Brian Michaud for permission to use audio from his YouTube channel. And our deepest thanks to Dr. Karen Hendrix for her scholarship, an exploration of compassionate music teaching that is explored in this podcast. Her book, compassionate music teaching is published by rowman and Littlefield press. This is the music and peacebuilding podcast hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson. At Elizabeth Towne college we host a master of music education with an emphasis in peacebuilding. thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care. Join us at music peace

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