Music & Peacebuilding

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Refugee choir, belonging, human expression, creative spirits, Tacoma refugee choir, mission statement, space and place, community, trust, musical literacy, adaptive leadership, cultural practices, identity, empathy, peacebuilding.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 9, Speaker 12, Speaker 5, Kevin Shorner-Johnson, Speaker 1, Speaker 3, Speaker 4, Speaker 8, Erin Guinup, Speaker 11, Speaker 14, Speaker 2, Speaker 6, Speaker 10, Speaker 13, Orlando Morales, Speaker 7

 

Erin Guinup  00:00

That empower people and enfranchise people to feel like they have their creative spirits. Humans have a right to human expression, a human right to create. And so how can we honor this human right to create in a way that doesn't make people feel like they're not enough, they are enough today to contribute.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  00:22

You are listening to season four of the music and peace building podcast, a podcast season focused on multi faceted textures of belonging. Our podcast explores intersections of peacebuilding, sacredness, community, creativity and imagination through research and story.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  00:40

This is part two of a journey across two years of conversations about the Tacoma refugee choir. Erin Guinup was the founding executive and artistic director of the Tacoma refugee choir, and is a nationally recognized scholar, performer and clinician. Orlando Morales is the artistic director of the choir and a music theater composer and director, arts leader and pianist. The executive director of the Tacoma refugee choir is J Woody Lotts. In this part two of an exploration of the Tacoma refugee choir, we look at the mission, constructions of spaces, empowering song, and finally, a dialog about who gets to choose the language that defines the stories of who we are. I asked Erin about the mission statement and our need to move from outsider to Insider status.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  01:34

So I want to read the mission statement of the refugee choir in the book chapter you wrote, you state that the mission statement of the choir emphasizes the value of belonging and hope in creating a welcoming community, the strengths of one's social network is shown to be a key indicator of health and success and a sense of belonging. So this season, we're looking at belonging, and I think I wanted to open up with that question about places and spaces. So you have a very interesting story about the start of the choir in which people show up and there's no refugees in a refugee choir, and you write very beautifully about your realization about why place and space matters. So could you open that up for us about the intersection of belonging, place and space?

 

Erin Guinup  02:21

Absolutely, I think all we can do actually, is create spaces, whether that's physical space or metaphorical space. And there are a lot of barriers that they face. Some of them are perceived and some of them are real. So in the case of starting the choir, there were some very real barriers to that space being, unfamiliarity, a bit of distance, and those factors need to be overcome in order for someone to feel comfortable in that space. And then you have the relationships. And the reality is that first week in the choir, a number of people already knew each other, and so anyone to come into that space is going to perceive themselves as an outsider, no matter if you have that intention. And so it's overcoming that creating space for someone to quickly go from outsider to Insider that is critical in any way that we work, whether that's at the grocery store or in their music ensembles that we're creating.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  03:25

In her 2020 article on the formation of the refugee choir, Guinup writes about an individual with Kurdish refugee experiences. She writes quote as I was ending the phone call more discouraged than before he thanked me for listening and being his friend, I was struck with the clear realization that the music we had made together had created an intimacy of trust that allowed us to develop a deep friendship. While I could not end violence and suffering, I could sit with him, to lift him up while his heart was breaking, when we feel powerless to help those we care about, our friendship and support is sometimes the only resources we have to give, and perhaps the most valuable. He and I would never have developed this powerful relationship if we had not first sung together. The joining of voices and song may be a grounding of breath and presence, opening intimacies of trust and relationship

 

Speaker 1  04:37

[From documentary on TRC] practices in person, I love the song that everyone's saying, Hello, friend. How are you today?

 

Speaker 2  04:44

A friend of mine, I think his name is Clovis. He told me about the refugee choir about about three years ago, I was searching. I was searching for a choral

 

Speaker 3  04:54

group. Over the course of this last year, the Tacoma refugee choir has become kind of like a second home to me. We

 

Speaker 4  05:00

moved out from, I was in a foster parent for foster care. So I moved out, you know, I brand new to, you know, to everything, and I was kind of lost. Honestly, I was

 

Speaker 5  05:14

one of the first people to join the choir. Once I get there, then I begin to click in. And I What helps are the people.

 

Speaker 6  05:22

I really wanted to be part of a community that welcomed people regardless of where they were from, because I could see how there was a lot of division in the world, and I wanted to help bring some unity to my small, little corner. Before I

 

Speaker 3  05:41

joined the choir, I was really self conscious, really unsure of myself for what I wanted to do. And then I joined the choir, and I found a place where I could just be myself and express myself how I want to and not worry about being being judged by others, the little

 

Speaker 7  05:58

by little that you know, rooms are growing for me to be what you know I should be. Not

 

Speaker 8  06:06

only does this choir community make them feel a sense of belonging within the choir, but they feel a sense of belonging in this country that they had not yet felt. And so I always feel like I want to be part of that. I would love to be part of what makes someone feel like they belong

 

Speaker 1  06:24

here. Support of the community. When you are in, when you're sad, or if you need help, it's very important.

 

Speaker 9  06:37

But trust me, when we're singing in a group, I feel like I'm a good singer, so I'm motivated and and the songs, my stories, and the love that everyone in the choir shows to each other kind of just fills you up with love and joy. And at the end of the rehearsal, you're like a brand new man, and you go to sleep and really nice, expecting for better things tomorrow, even

 

Speaker 10  07:03

if you cannot sing, you can come and listen and somebody's going to be lifted up. That's just how that is. I'm learning about myself

 

Speaker 6  07:14

The choir is everything to me. It has become part of who I am and become part of my identity, because I love these people so much.

 

Speaker 11  07:28

The choir gave me, beside my personal life, my family and my work, the choir became like have a room in my mind what I think about every day, and I don't think about as a job or something. It is a place where I want to go. I can share anything I want to share, and people will still take it, even if I doubt myself,

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  07:52

they lift me up.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  07:54

What resonates from me as I as I think about space and place that resonate with you probably the most impactful peacebuilding work I think I've ever done was when we had a Puerto Rican bomba y plena group come to Elizabethtown college. And I had, I had recognized that central Pennsylvania, at that time, was the second largest site of Puerto Rican migration in the United States, especially following Hurricane Maria. And started getting into this literature about the re- territorialization of space, like a college campus doesn't really feel like a Puerto Rican space in many senses, and it's a huge barrier, because maybe if I identify as Puerto Rican, I wouldn't see myself as that being my space. And we developed, like five school busses to come to the concert hall. Everybody came in. The music started. It started to heat up. But when that space became a Puerto Rican space, was when the flags came out, the Coqui calls came out, and then the the African diaspora tradition of call response like comes out between the band and people, and it was this powerful moment for me to recognize how a space can be re-territorialized by a community, and then all of a sudden, it becomes a space for this, this group, plus this group and the the radical work of peacebuilding that happens there. I don't know if any of that resonates with you. No, I absolutely,

 

Erin Guinup  09:23

I absolutely love this. I that idea, because I think we have, you know, beautiful venues throughout the country that people keep saying, why aren't people not coming into that space? And this idea is absolutely true. And I think we can look at the other side of the coin of taking our music into other spaces. And there's lots of people doing this, of you know, hosting concerts in unconventional spaces in the communities. And I think that that's super important as well. That one thing that we've talked about in our team is it's so important for us not to just expect people to come to us. For us to go, go to them, and not just go to them with our programming, but go to their events, show up in their community pieces, because really what we're looking for are relationships. That is what belonging is. It's a relationship. It's which means it's not one way. It's not transactional. It is. It means showing up to the things that matter for them as well, and being humble enough to listen if our programming needs to change in order to meet the need, even if it's uncomfortable for us. I think one thing I've really tried to embrace is this idea of willingness to be uncomfortable, not to a point of complete self sacrifice all the time, but I have made lots of changes in the way that I teach in order to accommodate our needs. For example, we don't use sheet music most of the time with the choir, taking the sheet music out of the equation was one of the most painful things I've had to do in my entire career as a music educator, but it was crystal clear to me that that was a barrier that kept people out. It. What it does is it, if someone is not music literate, it makes them feel that they are not smart enough to belong in that space, that they have remedial work to do to rise to the standard of belonging. And I mean, I love I love notation. I you know, I write my own notation. I do it for myself, because that is the language I speak. But I try most of the time, I try really hard to to teach in a way that that allows people to feel like who they are is enough. And I think that that's a really important characteristic of belonging, is allowing people to feel that they are enough in that space. Because if we can start from that space, then we can grow. And ultimately, I probably am going to sneak in with my with the Tacoma refugee choir, a little bit of notation every once in a while, because I want them to get there. But it's only because I've established so much of this time saying we're good here you are enough at this space, and let's see if we can add another layer of knowledge to that, whereas most of the time it's taught as okay, we need to learn these skills SO that you can participate.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  12:30

So we're really expanding the notion of what literacy is in music education. And go ahead, yeah,

 

Erin Guinup  12:37

and literacy like, I think I heard a podcast once it was really fascinating that talked about our concept of what, even music theory and literacy, is fairly limited to a piece of paper. But do we talk about the dances that are associated with the rhythms that the the cultural traditions that would be associated with those percussive rhythms? Are we thinking about how how movement is integrated in those pieces. Are we thinking of the artwork and the other practices that would be integrated with that practice? So, I mean, you could go on and on with pieces that we don't include. I was recently on my trip. I was talking to someone in London, and this woman, an African immigrant, spoke of how they use solfege and but the sheet music perplexed her. And I thought, Oh, wow. It didn't even occur to me that you.. but it's a different kind of solfege. But my thought was, well, I would really love to learn this kind of solfege, now I have to ask my members to see if any of them know this different kind of solfege system, because maybe I have another language to communicate with.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  13:52

My reflection was that when I went to Haiti, I was in this large area outside the school where for the school day begins, and this is when the kids who are in band will take their instruments out and just start playing with each other. And they all had the essential elements band books because they'd been donated to the school. It's like, Oh, I know this. I know essential elements. And they opened the page, and they started playing the essential elements band tune, but then they went into a Haitian riff immediately. And it was this, it was this realization that, like, there was this entirely different way of being musical that I was only beginning to learn about. And I think that was my journey of openness to a more expansive sense of literacy, which then maybe also expands the walls of belonging in those spaces too.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  14:42

The book empowering song by Andre De quadros and Emily Amrein, and the resonance I hear between the book and Orlando Morales philosophy of choral organizing led me back to this text. This book seeks to decenter. Choral music making, re scripting hierarchical models toward collective practices of listening and music making, The authors write "without dialog music educators, or all educators, for that matter, may be unaware of the wounds that people hold, their joys, the identities they inhabit, and their tenderness and vulnerability, all of which are rarely expressed" they later go on. "Expansive listening requires coming into relationship with an intentional posture of humility, one that recognizes the vastness of what we do not yet know about being human. This unknowing can be disconcerting and disorienting within a professional field of practice that values decisiveness, expertise and authority, perhaps the greatest lesson is for us to learn to take risks compassionately and to create open ended activities that allow for deep listening as part of the journey of vulnerability."

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  16:13

Part of the book takes, takes one of the original texts on theater as a liberatory practice, and it asks the question about like, what can choral music learn from theater as a liberatory practice? And not to spoil the book too much, but one of the conclusions there is that choral music, for too long, has been top down. It's been there has been one vision of either the composer or the director, and then it's just there. And there's no place for dialog to go back and forth and back and forth between the audience and the performers to listen to performers stories, as well as listening to the story of the composer and asking for choral music to be more of a dialogic space. I think that's some of what I hear is, I hear you talk about theater there. Yeah,

 

Orlando Morales  17:05

I want to read that book. It sounds like, right in line with things that I'm really interested in right now. There's, I mean, it's very fraying, right? Because we're talking about, it's not education that we're talking about, or, you know, the systems of education, but it is still about moving past is that we're just depositing information. We're just depositing music in singers brains, and that you come in here, shuffle in here, here's the sheet music, and this is how we sing it, that kind of thing. And then moving to this questioning, right? It's definitely something that we try to bring into Tacoma refugee choir. I'm not sure that everybody is realizing that, you know, is what's happening. And I don't want to make it about, let's try out this Freirian system of rehearsal. But I think it is important just to be like, okay, so then this space, we're all learning, we're all creating, and try to remove that those hierarchies as much as possible. I'm having this it's funny, because at the beginning of this, this season, we had some new members in and we have some members who come from community choirs and practice of their own of choral singing. And there was one exercise that we did where I was like, Okay, y'all know the melody, the basis of the melody. We kind of treat it as like a head to use some, you know, jazz phraseology there, right? And we had done exercises where it's like, you know, this is sound circle. We're just going to tell a story. Let's say a story is going through the jungle, so beginning, middle and end, go, and everybody kind of finds their way creating their own sounds and things like that. So we do a lot of, you know, those exercises exist, right? But we did a level up from that was like, okay, so we have a melody. So Why don't y'all, kind of, in ways that are very common in other musical traditions, just improvise the arrangements of this and the where we get, where it comes to a climax, and where we have...  like y'all can do that. We'll just, we'll just listen to each other. And I played their, you know, play the note to put us in pitch, and then I let them go. But you could see throughout the course is that some folks, you know, they will just naturally start to look at me, you know, and look for every little cue, you know, that they can kind of that baggage that they bring in from being in other ensembles, and how fun it was for me to lovingly be like, I'm not gonna help you. You got this? The point of this is that we're listening to each other, right? And then the music doesn't come from me. I'm pointing at myself, right, or even from a piece of paper. We don't we don't have pieces of paper. You know, in Tacoma refugee choir, we don't, we don't do the sheet music thing, but just trying to be like, move the center of the room, the focus into the center of the circle, and we practice it. It's normal for us to practice in seated in a circle. That's how we usually have rehearsals. Is that we, we create that a working space that's inclusive in that way and feels less hierarchical, hopefully so even just orienting the room so that it's focused into a center where nobody's necessarily sitting. Right is that the music will be generated somewhere in the middle by everybody looking at each other. But it was, it's funny how, like folks who are new to the choir, or even folks who've been with the choir for a while, they will, you know, sometimes, just by default, look for somebody in charge at all times. And that's something that I think is a big joy to try to deconstruct. It's pretty fun.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  21:00

Orlando Morales' role as accompanist further, de centered the idea of a conductor offering openings for choir members to find diverse leaders within themselves. I asked Erin about her use of creative harmonization as a process of de centered decision making within the group.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  21:21

So let me, let me read this quote back to you about building community harmony. So you can say it can, it can be a challenge to break patterns of homogeneity and accept differences as a positive trait, and working from a place of no notation. You said, breaking down the process by starting with rhythms has improved the texture of our songs and given members the courage to be even more adventurous. Some strategies include repeating words on a single note under the melody. Melodies are repeated members trying to invent harmonies. But then I love this last part that choir members are encouraged to acknowledge someone when they like a sound that they have added to the texture. So tell me about how you've built this philosophy of harmonies in choir?

 

Erin Guinup  22:04

Yeah, I mean, I think it's always evolving, and it it reflects who is in that group. But I definitely we try to acknowledge one another when there's something that we like in. So if someone has a good idea, you know, there's, there's definitely a, you know, snaps, kind of moment and ooh, Linda just came up with a good harmony here or so forth. Because our work is so much about devising our songs. We're always evolving as well. And someone may have a new idea, and we want to embrace those ideas or discuss it. There have been ideas that we've been like, that's That's an interesting idea, and it's probably not the right fit because of so forth, or that might be too hard. Our work really does center on devising the piece, and so when we, when we're creating, co creating together. It's important that everyone has an opportunity to give input on those ideas. One strategy we used recently was everyone creating their own harmonies and then having the sections come together and then decide together what version of that they were going to do. So there were lots of ideas, and I remember the Alto section specifically going, we like this harmony. We like this harmony. And then someone said, Well, why don't we split it? So then they split their section, so there was an alto one and alto two. And they worked. They had to just change a couple of things, and then they agreed on that. And I loved that. I didn't decide how this went. They decided together the harmony that worked best for them

 

Orlando Morales  23:47

We've come to asking folks within the choir be like, Hey, you don't have any necessarily, quote, unquote, conducting experience. But would you want to, you know, try and do your own thing. Like, like, we'll have a shared language. We borrow some signs from the gospel world, because that's something that I'm I'm familiar with, but they're pretty universal, you know. And you know, a podcast is great for showing hand signals, but, you know, there's signals for last time, repeat and Vamp or change keys and things like that, but just um inviting folks who are interested in some creative leadership opportunities to be like, it's okay if you don't have experience, but let's have you start rehearsing as the the leader, the conductor of this song, and then The next song, there could be a new conductor, or maybe in the next song, we don't need a conductor, right? We can just listen to each other. So I think that's been really fun, especially this this season, to kind of play around with that and negotiate some of the new, some of the new. uh. Obstacles that might come up, but also knowing that it's, it's all part of this bigger project, I think, to find out how we can, yeah, have have an ensemble, a choral ensemble, that is less reliant on hierarchies and banking, banking method.

 

Erin Guinup  26:04

[music],

 

Erin Guinup  26:58

One of the concepts I've been learning a lot about this year is adaptive leadership, and this idea that leadership, one of the characteristics of leadership is navigating loss. People aren't necessarily fearful of change. They're fearful of loss. What do they lose in the process? And so the role of a leader is actually to help people understand how to navigate that loss and see that the end goal is worth that loss that they might experience for what they might gain, because it's well documented that people would much rather hold on to what they have than risk losing that even if it's a terrible piece, if there's so much to gain when we're looking at music and for example, taking the risk to not use sheet music, that there's a huge amount of loss that we might feel as How on earth am I going to do this? I'm going to lose all the musical richness. There's all sorts of things that you might imagine losing. And frankly, some of those things you might lose at first, until the patterns become established, and then you can add on to it. So sometimes it's dipping into the valley and understanding that there is a gain to be had there. And so if a music educator is going to take the risk of incorporating more of these strategies, they have to be able to help the people they're working with understand the losses that they may experience, that how much they will gain. One of the things I feel like I've gained as a musician, or some of the things I memorize so fast now, like I can teach a song in 15 minutes to the choir with multi part harmony, and everyone will have it memorized. It's such fast acquisition, and it has staying power, because music doesn't live on a sheet of paper. I also feel like we can get much more connected musically and in the body quickly, because it's already in the body right from the beginning. Personally, as a musician, I feel like it has helped me to improvise differently, to hear harmonies differently, and to pick up language, actually more quickly, because I've not relied so much on my eyes, which is my dominant sense, and had to rely on different senses, including, of course, my ears, but also the kinesthetic experience.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  29:28

So you talk about the slowness of building trust within often tokenized populations, and I'm you know, in peace building literature, I've followed Donna Hicks work on dignity and how dignity and identity are really central to conflict, and once a dignity violation has happened, it takes a long time and a lot of intention to rebuild from that. And I think I would, I would guess that, you know, trust is very much related to senses of dignity and identity. But talk about some of these stories. Is about the slowness of building trust, and what kind of slow work it takes.

 

Erin Guinup  30:07

I think there's layers of trust, and you have to build it, kind of like a reverse onion, where you're just adding layer and layer of trust. And unfortunately, like, just like a knife, it can be cut right back through again with a violation, and so it it does require a lot of consistency of showing up. I really think having fun is a critical part of building trust. When you can laugh together, you recognize your humanity and there, then there has to be a common purpose. Why are you even working together? If there's not unity in what you're trying to accomplish, then it's incredibly fragile and not even necessarily worth sustaining. And I think we see that in a lot of community work outside of the arts, where people want to bring together diversity for the sake of diversity, instead of diversity just being a starting point for bringing together different perspectives, when we can remember that everything is about relationships, and so just like you would be in a relationship with someone that you deeply love, you have to build those layers of trust knowing that there's been lots of violations in The past that give that person, give some of these communities more reasons to distrust than others.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  31:34

I think I want to go back to place and space, because you have a really powerful story about the choir singing with the governor, and how, how, in some ways, music was a boundary crosser. Again, it was an access point to allow people who maybe don't feel like that's a place where they may have a voice, and then all of a sudden there's this change, there might be a sense of voice. Could you introduce us to that story a little bit?

 

Erin Guinup  32:02

Absolutely, I think this was a game changing point for our choir this year, because we've been invited to sing for the Governor's State of the State address. And prior to it's a televised event, and prior to the event, we went down a few days earlier in the evening, we had the chambers to ourselves, so we got to go in the space to practice the national anthem. And then we were able to just, I had the choir just be quiet for five minutes and think about what this space meant, and had a conversation about what it meant that we were invited into this space. And I mean, I might get emotional talking about because the seeing that transformation, that we belong in this space, that this government speaks for us and that we have, that our voice matters to the people who are in this space. It was so beautiful. People took pictures of themselves, and one of our members, at the end of the night said, I'm going to sit in one of these seats someday. And I'm, I mean, that's that came from a musical experience. And then when we sang for the State of the State address, they sang with so much pride. And at the beginning of a legislative session where we hope that those legislators will see these faces that is a rainbow of of beautiful people from different backgrounds when they're considering policies. And so when they went to go talk to the governor in the state of and the Speaker of the House, they knew exactly what to talk about. They I didn't have to speak for them. They spoke for themselves and it it was perfection. They were absolutely prepared to speak in those spaces, because they found their voice singing, and then they knew how to use it. Yeah,

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  33:57

In this story with the governor, I hear the resonance of a place transformed where new voices state their entrance in having a role in this place, in studying Edward Ralph and David Seaman, I have learned that we inhabit a particular place, and we play A role in making the places that we inhabit, our decisions about relationship, family, transportation, architecture and the arts weave together a place, if a place becomes too generic, too objectified, too fragmented, Too untrusting, too filled with the ghosts of traumas. Inhabitants may experience a place as a non-place, adrift of security and belonging. However, as Cara Courage notes, the arts play a role in knitting together a place. In an organization like the Tacoma refugee choir musical participants weave together a tapestry of place, stitching multicolored threads of identity into resilient, connective communities. In the excerpt to come Orlando encouraged me to move beyond language of reclaiming spaces, taking the time to invest in all the cultural practices, all of the relations that surround an art form, learning to live differently and be changed,

 

Orlando Morales  35:33

when you kind of look a little like lift the curtain a little bit, when we start to think about the the parts of culture that are not as they're not on the surface and that we don't notice. So looking beyond, like food, and looking beyond, you know, the sound of a kind of music, or, you know, the the costume that somebody might be wearing. And we think about the less tangible things that make that music happen, or make that, you know, dessert happen, some of the the knowledge of the technique and the craft and the ritual or the stories and histories that are embedded in in these cultural artifacts and and we asked the question of Like, how much of that is actually a part of of the landscape now and the environment, and realize that actually we might have a lot of YouTube videos of a kind of Filipino dance or or a kind of Filipino dessert, but people don't actually know how to reproduce that in the way that it was, or how to reproduce that with the kind of the legacy of why it exists that way in the first place? So that those types of questions, I think right now pop up when we talk about, especially when we were talking about, like, making space, right? It's, it's great that we are feeling like, you know, the vibes right now is that, hey, yeah, it's with diversity. Is good. We need to have this representation of things in our in our curriculums and but it's important for me to also push folks to realize that it goes deeper than you know, say, I'm trying to think of a good example. Okay, so say, if you want to teach a Filipino folk song to your class, and then you're like, Okay, great. So here's the sheet music for this transcribed Filipino folk song, and then let's learn it. Let's learn the pronunciation. Watch a YouTube video to make sure we're doing it right? That's great, right? That's a great first step, but we are missing the method that it was transmitted in the first place. So like.. I learned a lot of these folk songs by ear, right by by, you know, going to a family event and your uncle being like, Oh, this is the chord, you know, and this is and that intro, they'll go, okay, passacaglia, you got to play the passacaglia that's how we say intro, right? And so there's a craft and a way of executing that craft that's, I think, more important, or even, you know, if not as important as the thing that we get in the end, right? So when we're, you know, watching a, you know, a mixed group of of kids singing a Filipino folk song that they learned on the sheet music, that's great tip of the iceberg. But I feel like the cultural practice, some of the ideas, the grammars, maybe, or like the techniques, are even more important, because if you have those crafts and techniques, then you can reproduce music in that style. It's not even just about authenticity. To me, it's about preserving human experience. And so that's the space that I really, I'm really interested in carving out right now. And so in not just like in Tacoma refugee choir, for instance, it's really important for me to have culture bearers be the authority you. And we've come to situations where somebody might be like, Okay, well, is that a, you know, that we'll have a culture barrier that's teaching us a song. And then somebody say, well, is that a half note or a whole note, or, you know, what time signature Are we at? And then so the opportunity for me the TRC method, is to say, well, you know, this is not a song that was written in in kind of the Western tradition. So really, there are no half notes and whole, you know. Let's try to learn it the way that this person is teaching it to us, and to respect that way, and importantly, to struggle. So if you want to know there's, there's, there's reflection that's involved there. And I think reflection is really important for for this work that we're doing, right if you want to have something translated or interpreted for you into half notes and quarter notes. Is it because it's going to help you understand it faster? Is it because it's going to make you feel like you are more in control, or that you are in an environment that you that you are more familiar with? Because if the answer is yes, and I'm like, you know that's not enough, that's not a good enough reason, right? Because I think it is important for our project of understanding other people and the scope and breadth of humanity to commit to struggling with learning in somebody else's method, because that's also going to put us in their shoes. What do you think it was like to come to this country as a asylum seeker, refugee, migrant, or even just not from Tacoma? And so we get that reminder what it's like, and the beauty in the struggle, that wonderful feeling is like, when you get it, you know, and you kind of go through that. So I think that's, that's really important, and that's, that's kind of like, how I ideally see space being carved out, is that, yeah, we have time to reflect on, like, why you're feeling uncomfortable in that moment, and then to, like, committing to to that discomfort in it, knowing that it's part of it's even more important than you learning it, quickly, being confident in it, or even like getting the notes. What's more important is us, understanding that there are other ways to learn music, and that there are other ways that in different cultures that transmit. So I think, yeah, that's that's a place, or an example of of how I hope space is being, you know, more effectively carved out for for folks and being reclaimed, right? Is that these choir that spaces, these choral spaces, can we be places where minds meet and we compare methods, and we, we've, you know, become code switchers, right? I think that's another, really amazing opportunity, a potential of these spaces.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  43:29

As we talked about reclaiming spaces, we moved to Orlando's Filipino heritage and his work as a music theater composer to construct stories that complicate the narrative. One of his musicals, stories the US occupation of the Philippines, exploring complex textures of oppression. In this play, Morales explores the stories of the black US Buffalo Soldiers who defected when the realities of re inscribing oppression in a different land became untenable to personal conscience.

 

Orlando Morales  44:09

It's first and foremost a project in writing something that my grandparents would have loved, right? So they loved Rogers and Hammerstein musicals. You know, we grew up, you know, I they would, you know, whistle and sing songs from carousel and they, you know, they loved, they loved musical theater, you know. And I didn't really understand how much at the time, but it was the popular art form while they were coming to the United States and were in the Philippines. So just knowing, you know, looking around and being like, you know, they, they would have loved to see something that was about our experience, told in kind of this very American style. And so that's a project that specifically for me is about like, you know, what if? What if? What if? Can we play with like, pastiches of these forms to poke at people's understanding, or poke at the ways that folks have understood musical theater or even American history, the stories that exist in these peripheries, or the stories of folks that don't quite fit in the standard narratives. They're endless. They're all over the place, right? I feel like they're more numerous than than the stories that we have that that really reinforce the way that we think of America, or reinforce a certain narrative. It's it's all too diverse to kind of understand, and so I think it's just like our The invitation is to kind of not even have to look too far, but like to go after the stories that complicate and that enrich long standing narratives and and to give them time and to give and to make them to again borrow like this, this phrase from Woodruff, but to pay attentionable right like something that is worth watching, right through craft and things like that. So I definitely think I love the idea of taking a form like musical theater, which endures and and engages folks, and has the ability to take the stories of quote, unquote, normal people, like an everyday person, and then elevate them through music and then kind of appropriate, right? I will use that term to appropriate that for my own use. You know, to tell to complicate a vision of America.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  46:49

How do we complicate a vision of America for more conflicting stories, opening greater awareness of empathy and complexity, embracing strength and beauty alongside tender mistakes and missteps, the nuances of our language and our story making matter if we are to break our limited dichotomies, holding this love for nuance. Orlando, Erin and I talked about the word refugee, I sense a deep, ongoing care about the use of this language from our uncomplicated stories, Erin noted the dominance of the narrative of refugee as a symbol of tremendous loss, or the narrative of a refugee as a hero's journey against all odds, that dichotomy, short changes our humanization and curiosity of each other. When we ask the questions that we wish others would ask us about our stories, we open the possibility of stitching together a web of place that holds enough room for us to be as we want to be to each other as our complex, messy selves.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  48:09

Let's build off of that language of restoring and complication. And so I want to talk about the word refugee. Yeah, prior to this, prior to this interview, we talked about our desire for human centered language here. So talk to me about the ethical demands as we seek to restore this word refugee. You know, what are the deficit narratives we need to be careful of? When does one stop being a refugee? How do we restory or complicate beyond the boundaries of that term? Yeah,

 

Orlando Morales  48:38

ooh. Well, I would say, if you want to like, you're not going to find a definitive answer on this, but it would be worth, I always point folks to like. If you want to kind of understand the complexities and the potential struggles around a term refugee, you can talk to some folks who have experienced, you know, being a refugee. And as diverse as you know, human opinions go, you'll have some folks that's like, I never want to hear that word again, right? I never want to be considered a refugee again, okay? And so that that that is a feeling. And then you have some folks that be like, Yes, I lived through that experience. And I'm, you know, I'm proud that I came through it, and I want to help other folks who are experiencing being a refugee as well. And this is the term that we have right now that helps us identify who has a similar experience and who is, by definition, this kind of person who is seeking a new home. It's the complexity is, there's, there's one level of complexity, right? And then there's this also, kind of like semantics, right? Definitions of it is that refugee really is only one type of of person who. It, you know, is seeking a new home, and there's a political definition to it. And there's, there's by the books, but it's not necessarily the one that everybody holds with them, you know, as they walk around on a daily basis. Only, you know, a very small number of people actually understand the differences between a refugee, an immigrant, an asylum seeker, and that these are all different things with you know, could have similar, but usually very different experiences. I mean, for me, it's just being very specific, right? And in our mission too, knowing that we are a choir that is not just composed of refugees, that is composed of allies as well, or, you know, composed of folks who have have an ex a refugee experience. We also have folks who have an immigrant experience, right? And so we also have folks who are like me, who were born here but have very recent in our family histories an immigrant experience. So I think the important thing for the organization is going to be a continuing discourse, is that the way that we define ourselves is in constant conversation with the folks that we are naming, and so it's important that we have members in leadership roles who also have a refugee experience, and members who are in programming roles and who are involved in the conversation. And that's something that we're continuing to work to reinforce and to put into our practice, because if the conversation starts to turn is like, you know what this ref, you know this term refugee that we're using, it's not, it doesn't work anymore for what we're doing. Then you know it becomes a conversation about what we where we want to go right now, as it stands, the Tacoma refugee choir retains that the term refugee in our name as a commitment to centering those musical heritages and the and the leadership and the direction of folks who have a refugee experience, and that is kind of the core of our operating philosophy, right? Is that folks coming into the choir to learn from folks who have a refugee experience, because we believe that is going to make us better Americans, better at welcoming and also helping us make space for Those musical traditions that that folks bring with them.

 

Orlando Morales  53:04

it's not a term that we use lightly, right? And that we know that there it, it's triggering for some people, and it's it's something that continues to be on a point of discussion. I think that's really kind of inspiring about the organization as well and the folks that are involved in it, is that the work is what's important, right? And the way that we center that work is hopefully something that is is represented and mirrored in in the way that we identify the organization. So I think it's a continuing conversation. And the important thing too, I think, is that it the name Tacoma refugee choir currently kind of holds a banner up for folks to immediately understand what we are, right is that, you know, without kind of having to do a Google search, you hear the name Tacoma refugee choir, and you got, oh, place, Tacoma, right? Not Seattle, right? And then we know we're centering somehow. There are folks with a refugee experience involved, or there's advocacy there, or there's and then we have choir singing. So there's something about the the the forceful, the emphatic nature of that name that continues to endure despite continuing dialog and discourse about is there a different way that we identify right now? And yeah, we'll see what happens as we go into the future.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  54:43

May we embrace the profound togetherness, the meaning of place making chosen by the Tacoma refugee choir. This choir performs and lives an alternative vision of the world that builds and refuses to believe that we can be anything less than compassionate, connective and creative, and now we close this episode in Season Four that focused on belonging. This season has held the voices of performers, neuroscientists, social psychologists, peacebuilders and ethnomusicologists, as we have explored the multi faceted textures of what it means to belong to each other, to ourselves, to the natural world, to our bodies and as woven into place. I leave you with this closing parting gift of the Tacoma refugee choir from their recent concert

 

Speaker 12  55:40

art matters. Change matters. Thank you for being here, and if you have been a member at any time of this choir, We now invite you to come on the stage and sing our anthem with us. Thank you all again for being here today. Visit the tables after the concert's over.

 

Speaker 13  55:58

We always end our rehearsals with the same song in our concerts too. If you are an alumni, you heard him get up here, we want you to sing us this side's Probably easier [music singing yesterday].

 

Speaker 14  56:15

[music - Everybody loves someone]

 

56:49

[music - Everybody loves someone].

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  57:17

Special thanks to Tacoma refugee choir for the permission to use recordings in this podcast. My gratitude to Erin Guinup and Orlando Morales for their time and thoughts in helping me to bring this podcast together, I am forever grateful for learning of The ongoing, passionate, dedicated work that happens across communities.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  58:35

[music]

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  58:59

This is the music and peacebuilding podcast hosted by Kevin Shorner Johnson at Elizabethtown College. We host a master of music education with an emphasis in peacebuilding, thinking deeply. We reclaim space for connection and care. Join us at music peacebuilding.com

 

Speaker 13  59:34

Let's go be peacemakers, yah, thank you for coming visit our friends in the lobby. [music]